We're going to hear about some of the materials available for decking. So I'm here with John. Nice to see you, John. Hi. Nice to see you, Ben. So give us a little oversight on what's going on in this space because people jump to very prominent materials like teak. There's a lot of messaging around the industry about sustainability and other alternatives. What does that look like? Paint the picture. What's the scenario? Yeah. So yeah, in the last five years, things have changed massively. In the last 10 years, things have changed as well because of sustainability. And then in 2020, of course, in 2021, we had a coup in Myanmar where most of the Burmese teak came from. Right. And so then that made us all change. We knew it was coming at TDS. We've been studying alternative materials for 15 years so that we could expand our offer of decking that we could put on boats. I think we saw it coming. I think everybody in the industry saw it coming. But in 2021, that got thrown in our face. It really hit hard. It really came to a scramble. And it became a scramble. It was a massive scramble on what to do for a lot of people. And that's just to get hold of it. It's just a supply chain issue of where do we source teak because most of the wild grown teak is there. Yeah. The naturally grown teak was in Myanmar. And luckily, the British had done something in the early 1800s to preserve it. So there's still some left. Of course, when you're cutting down trees, especially naturally grown trees, people get concerned about it, as are we. Yeah. And that was one of our things. So we're always looking for legally certified teak. What's the most responsible? What's the most attractive? What's the most sustainable? They're all going to be important points, both for your side, just to pull longevity of the business, but also from a refit or a new build perspective, they want to see that. They want to see those options. Right. Of course. Of course. And that's where we've sort of gone now. We've gone into, not only us, in the last four years, everyone's had to inform the market, let the owners know, the owners' reps, the yards, and the yards knew, but that there's these other options. And the other options are plantation teak, modified woods, composites. Polyurethane, PVC, or those kinds of woods. And that's really grown fast in the last few years. That sounds like quite a long process, because early days in a refit or a new build, it's quite a long discussion. It's an educational play there to say, look, you don't have to jump straight to the traditional materials. There are alternatives available. Here's what they feel like, here's their properties, here's their longevity, all the detail. And what's happened now, as well, is it's really important what you just said, actually. Because before, everybody had one product, really. We used teak. Go to teak. And everybody had a stock of it. We had a stock of it. The shipyards all had stocks of it. Everybody had stock. So someone could phone you up and say, I need a deck. And you would have the stock in your warehouse and you could build it. Now because there's so many different options, for example, talking about plantation teak. There's plantation teak from Indonesia, Thailand, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Panama. So you don't have all of these in stock, so you need longer lead times and production times to get it. The modified woods, we're working a lot with a product called green teak, which are small laminates glued together. And there's production time in that, because it's a manufactured product. So they have to put it in their presses. They have to get it. It's very different from where we got the stockpile of it. Yeah. Instead of three or six months, it's 12 to 18 months now. I had a conversation with a yard here in Holland yesterday, and they're like, how long do you need? And we need 12, 18 months if possible. But at least the planning, rather than, can we have this next week? No, it's not possible. It's not how it used to be. So you've had to adapt and kind of make this available. You mentioned something before about sustainability. And that was happening. And it's been happening for 10, 15 years. It's everywhere. It's important. It's keeping the industry. Yeah. Well, what's happened now is that there's been a massive change again. And it sort of happened, I guess, in 2021 as well, as it sort of went into the people's heads. Okay, sustainability. And with that, this plantation teak or modified woods cork has really jumped onto the scene. And it's a great product. It's carbon negative. If you want an ecologically 100% product, cork is the best one. But it's also not a massive compromise on the end result, because that's really what drives demand, in my opinion. Being sustainable is great. The reality is often, okay, it's better to be more sustainable. But ultimately, especially in the superyacht industry, it's got to perform. It's got to feel right. It's got to meet the same standard and experience. It does in one sense. Aesthetically, it's a little bit different because it's not teak. Everyone loves the feel of this natural wood. But I've fallen in love with cork. I love the feel of it. It actually is beautiful. And there's other ones, like there's some modified woods, which are like cypress or pine. And we've been testing those in Florida. Everything that we do, we're a very conservative company. Every product that comes on the market, we'll get some of it. We'll put it in our testing facility in Florida, subtropical temperatures, rain. You can simulate and fast forward what would happen to it. A lot of these products that have come on the market, we've tested them. Some of them worked. Some of them haven't. Oh, right. Okay. And the truth is, unfortunately, because when you do it up here in Northern Europe, it's different temperatures. And they get down there and they'll crack or they'll do different things. We found a few that work. And those are the ones that we have that we're offering. Yeah, of course. Got some other ones that we're looking at now that are really good. And we're always trying to develop some new, not develop, but work in conjunction with companies who are developing new products that are sustainable and look good. Because aesthetically, when you're on a super yacht, it needs to look good. And that's what ultimately drives the owners. They want their boats to look good, feel good, and be sustainable. They're concerned about that for sure. Yeah. And so where does this go? As a company, over the next few years, how are you trying to evolve? I mean, we mentioned materials and that it almost sounds like a consultancy process. And this isn't just, right, we need that product. That's our decking. Done. It's let's understand this. What is right? Where's the boat going to be? What materials are available, costing, et cetera. And that's a big, like people walk up to you and it's like, well, we want to put teak on. So what do you really want on your boat? What's your boat going to be used for? Where are you going to go? What are you going to do? I think probably three years ago at TDS, we made a decision to say, we're going to open up our books. We're going to show everyone, like this is what it is. You ask the question and we'll tell you the answer. You want to know how much a teak deck costs to put on your boat? We'll tell you what it costs more or less, because there's a lot of differences. How much does a teak deck cost? Well, it costs this much. More or less. It depends. Do you want cork? Do you want teak? Do you want polyurethane composite decks? And we'll tell you what goes in it. How do you do it? You go on our website and everything is there. There's videos of how we make the decks, how we put them down. That transparency has proven really valuable, because you can show things like costings, and then also on the sustainability front, you've got a Water Revolution Foundation and the Yeti software and all that kind of stuff to really... We want to be involved with them. We've been involved with them. This is a third party saying, this is the reality of what you're doing. This is how it's being made and you can measure it so it's real. It's not just you guys saying, oh, it's okay, or focusing on certain messages. It has to be transparent. It's got to be out there. We were talking with the guy yesterday about that, and he said, I want someone to tell me who actually has it on the boat. I don't want a motor manufacturer of engines to tell me how great their engine is. I want someone who's used it, or a third party. And you're right. And we've done a life cycle, an LCA life cycle analysis on green teak, which is what we're using. One of the best things about green teak is that with a normal teak, when you're using natural battens, you get about 30% yield from a trunk that you can actually put on a boat. The other stuff goes for furniture and that kind of stuff. With the green teak, it's about 80%. And it's even more we found now, actually. So you're taking a log and you're using 80% of that log. That's more than twice the output, the usable material for the decking. And the environmental impact in these things, it's like between 2% and 17% better than teak, like natural teak. And we talked about it before. What's the most sustainable, environmentally friendly product? It's cork, without a doubt. But it has limitations on the mind of people, because it's not teak. And for us, like plantation-grown teak, you're cutting a tree down and you're planting 10. And that's a few companies have done an assessment on it. And when you cut a tree down, how many do you need to plant to compensate for the cutting that way? And it's between 8 and 12, I think is the numbers that I've heard from different studies. So that's what we want. We don't want to cut down trees willy-nilly. It has to be controlled, because we want to be in this, but we've been around for 40 years. We want to be around for 40 more. And I think the sustainability, looking after the environment, goes to the products that we use. We try to be very... We're the only company in the world that has our own epoxy, our own caulking, and our own cleaning products. So when we build a deck, it's our deck. And if you build a deck with us, you use our products to build it, and then you use our cleaning products afterwards, we'll extend our warranty. Because our decks will last longer if you use our products, because they're not so aggressive. You've been able to test that. You've seen it. It's predictable. You can be transparent and open about it. That's powerful. It's valuable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right. Thank you very much, John. Excellent insight. Good to talk to you. It's really interesting. Cheers, mate. Everybody, if you enjoy content like this, make sure you'll follow in here to see plenty more of it. Outside of that, I'll see you very soon.