Hi, everybody.

Welcome back to another episode of the Ben Taylor podcast.

Today, we're sitting down with the CEO of a boat builder, the Saxdor boat builder.

And so I'm here with Erna Russi, uh, the CEO there.

So nice to see you, Erna.

Hey, nice to meet you, Ben.

Hi.

So give us some context.

What are, what are you about?

What's your thing?

And then we'll go into Saxdor.

Okay.

I've been in the boating business now for about a four and a half years.

Before that, I had 0 understanding of boats, period.

Oh, wow.

Uh, no boating background, totally from outside the industry.

So, uh, they, they really bet on a black horse when they hired me.

Okay, yeah.

So I joined the company 21 October and, uh, been here ever since.

And now you're here.

Okay.

And s- what was your background?

So if it wasn't boating, where, where are you coming from?

I was, I was really in telecom, uh, telecom business- Oh, right.

for about 20 years in various- Yeah.

roles from, uh, sales to, to business development, to brand and marketing.

Commercial roles mostly.

Right.

Okay.

And what difference have you, what differences have you seen?

'Cause I, I always look at the boating industry and go, "Well, it's usually boaters, especially in leadership acco- uh, of companies."

Yeah.

They've done it forever.

It runs in the family, something like that.

Yeah.

So what is your perspective on coming from outside of the industry?

Um, I think all of that applies, what you just said, but I do think that there's a lot of room, uh, to structure the companies differently, which has been sort of, you know, my angle.

I, I was never hired obviously to be the boating expert.

Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, to structure differently, to run the companies as businesses.

It's not a hobby, you know?

Yeah.

And to have more structure.

And I think that, you know, working for huge corporation gives you quite a good perspective of how different things should work, how you should align, and so on and so on- Yeah, the commercial side, yeah.

especially when you grow.

Yeah.

And the s-

And I, I always think boat building is a difficult business.

Yeah.

It's, it's just difficult.

It's really complicated manufacturing, pretty niche audience.

Yeah.

Uh, high-value items, like, to sell them and market them, like the investment in a stand, all these shows.

Yeah.

That kind of thing, it's just a difficult business.

It is.

It is.

And I think that one thing I did leave out in my previous answer was that the difference obviously is being in a manufacturing industry.

So obviously, when you make something, it's much more labor-oriented.

You got a lot more people to, uh, look after.

It's different if you're in a, you know, service provider business- Yeah.

or even if you're purchasing something from a manufacturer and then distribution.

So we do it end-to-end.

Everything is us.

Okay.

So, yeah.

And, and tell us more about Saxdor.

What does the brand stand for?

What's your mission?

What's the kind of target there?

Mm-hmm.

Well, Saxdor is obviously founded by Sakari Matila, who, in my opinion, is a pure genius in this industry.

Um, Sakari is, uh, the Steve Jobs of this industry.

He's the, he has a totally different thinking in his design.

He has created the day boat category, if you like.

Okay.

So, you know, or the adventure boat, however you wanna call it, but this type of boating has really come from Sakari's, uh, uh, pen, you know, if you like.

Because he has founded Aquador, Paragon, co-founded XO, founded Axopar, and then this is his 5th And then Saxdor as well.

and final

And final, I'd like to point out.

Okay.

Our final boat brand.

So, hm- you know, what we stand for, we have always believed, we have 3 brand pillars;

uh, Whoa, Design, Whoa, Performance, and Whoa, Pricing.

So, you know, we think that combining those 3 is really the key to success.

And, uh, we have, um, been able to create a sort of

We have found our position in the marketplace, uh, where it's not easy to compare us directly with somebody else.

We have sort of found our position, but I'm sure we'll come back to that later.

So, so a little bit like, um

Okay, with a cr- with that cross-section of those 3 values, you then, uh, end up with, uh, a little bit of a niche part of the market, but actually quite a nice one.

And so, you don't have to compete against other boat builders serving other niches.

You can actually just stay in your stronghold.

Is that, is that where you're coming from there or?

Um, I would say so, that surprisingly, our design

These th- these 3 things combined, um, we have been able to find a very sort of nice position globally that speaks to large audience.

If you call us niche, yeah, niche, in, in the sense that, you know, we are only 6 years old brand and so on.

But when you look at, uh, when you look at our growth and our global footprint, um, we speak to audiences from, from the Nordics all the way down to Nigeria, to, to, to Middle, Middle East, to Caribbean, to, to Canada cold markets, to

You know, so we have found, uh, a design and, and brand position that speaks to large audience, and that is really the key for our growth.

So we're not in a niche.

We're a serial production company.

Right.

Okay.

We produce approximately 700 boats a year.

Wow.

Nice.

Nice.

That's quick, that's quick as well.

We're s- six and a half years in?

Yeah, 6 years we've been in the market.

Yeah.

And, and do you find the, the buyers of these boats are often traditional boaters, or is it a bit of a fresher- No, no.

mass market audience?

Not traditional.

There are, obviously.

There are.

Yeah, they're there, but yeah.

But, but, but I would say that, first of all, our audience is a bit younger than the average.

Okay.

Uh, there's a lot of people, um, sort of younger people, that have come to money, you know, that have maybe s- had a start-up, they've sold this and that, you know, new money.

Yeah.

And, uh, and, uh, our audience, um, the key target group starts from 35 up.

I think the biggest, uh, group is 45, 55.

and then spilling over.

Okay.

But, um, I would like to also point out that women love our brand.

Thi- this is interesting as well.

Yes.

Na- not only because you're a female CEO, okay, you can, you can lead the, the company in that direction.

Mm-hmm.

But I remember at the, uh, European Boating Industry Breakfast, you were on a panel with, uh- Oh, yeah.

2 other boat builders.

And there was a, there was a, there was a conversation that came up which was essentially, consider the female purchase decision-maker.

Exactly.

Because if they don't approve, it's selling itself.

I would like to ask that when was the, when was the last time that any, uh, any male, uh, who has a partner has purchased a home, a summer house, furniture, done, uh, remodeling without their wife or their partners- Yeah.

their, their, their partner being essential, uh, decision-maker- Yeah.

in that?

And I, I think, I think this is actually quite straightforward.

I think it's, well, they're gonna enjoy it and spend time on it as well.

Exactly.

So if it's something like a family boat, going day boating, taking the whole family out- Exactly.

they're gonna be on it.

It's gotta appeal to them too.

It's got to.

And it's, it's worth it from a boat builder's perspective to say, "Let's, um, consciously make sure there are features and design elements-" Absolutely.

designed for- Absolutely.

everyone onboard.

Yeah.

And I think that what we have built, we hear the feedback from the female, females a lot that, um, "Oh, I love the, the beauty of it.

Um, I love the roundness.

I love the comfort.

I love the space.

I love the fact that I can have, uh, my family, my friends here for"

We call it social boating.

You know, we want you to spend the time on water, have, have fun with your friends and family.

Uh, I think that it's a big difference from traditional, if you like destination boating where you go somewhere and the fun is at the destination.

Our fun starts right when you step- The whole time.

onboard.

Yeah.

It's h- the, the boat is the experience.

Yeah.

You know?

And most of the time, it's stationary.

Exactly.

That's when you enjoy it.

And then, you know, when you wanna drive it, we always build driver's boats, so the performance is essential.

So when you wanna go, our boats go.

Yeah.

So, you know, uh, there, there's a thrill for everybody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that, that's fantastic.

And so y- you mentioned as a manufacturer, you've scaled up to now 700 boats going out of the factory- Yeah.

every year- Yeah.

in six and a half years.

Mm-hmm.

How has that, how has that journey been going from kind of new boat builder, okay, Saxdor is now on the market, into

From a, from kind of a business side and operations side, what kind of challenges come up?

And, and how did you get over them?

What ha- what haven't we had?

Um, of course, a- as anybody knows, uh, scaling up is, is not, uh, is not always easy.

Uh, we started in a rented facility of, um, I think we had like 4,000 square meters.

It was so cramped that when we were producing the 320s, we had to take the boats out in between different work stage, sta- stages, and we had to turn them outside because we didn't have any room in- indoors and so on.

But very, uh, shortly after, we built our own facility in Elk, uh, and of course that's even small now.

So, we have expanded to Finland.

We have expanded to a partner company.

Um, it's not, uh, it's not always easy because you have to

I- I like to say that you have to take 100% decisions with 70% information.

Yeah.

You cannot expect to always have everything in front of you and then take a decision, 'cause then you'll be late.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's about having the guts to, you know, read enough that you are, you are good to go, and, and trying to m- you know, you have to try to, try to take the decisions that you believe in, and, and push for that, you know?

Yeah.

Um, of course, it's a lot of, uh, personnel, a lot of, a lot more headcount, a lot more suppliers, a lot more partners, a lot more, uh, bigger entities to manage.

So it's, it's felt all throughout the organization.

Yeah.

And so when you're, when you're making the decision to expand and get more boats out and just increase the capacity, how much do you look at the wider industry data with, kind of, boat purchasing trends and things like that, compared to internal data, where you say, "Well, we're selling them, so let's follow that trend?"

Or is it kind of a bit of a balance?

How do you do it?

Of course, um, of course, we look at, we look at the markets, yes.

And we take, we look at the big trends.

But sometimes, again, the data is, kinda, outdated, 'cause it's looking in the rearview mirror.

Yeah.

So how do you predict the future based on looking at the rearview mirror?

Yeah.

So you kind of have to, we take what we can, and we look at the mega trends, of course.

But then, you just have to trust what you know.

You know?

You, you talk to your dealers, you talk to your markets, uh, you talk to your customers, you try to predict how things would go.

And, of course, you need to then always have the way of, of pull back.

You know, if it doesn't work- Yeah.

you have to be able to pull back as well.

And we have done that.

We have also failed, you know?

We started our US production, I think was, uh, '22, '23.

Couldn't do it.

Yeah.

Couldn't do it.

We probably chose a partner that wasn't optimal for us, and we tried to make round things square, you know?

Right.

Okay, yeah.

And it just didn't work- It just didn't work, but-

and we had to pull back.

Yeah.

And does it become a, a change quickly, otherwise it's just going to get worse?

Yeah.

And, and, you know, fail fast.

It's like, be agile.

Yeah.

Fail fast, right?

So if you d- think that this is not gonna do it, don't get too, too invested.

Address it nice and early, start those conversations, yeah, yeah.

You know when you, when they come, become your own babies, then you sort of just push and push- Yeah.

and you, you don't let go.

That's a, that's the, the scariest thing.

So you have to be able to let go of something.

For instance, we all love Saxdor 200, our first design.

Our customers love it.

It's a great, great, great boat to drive.

It's fun.

It's everything.

But when the market was slowing down after COVID, we very fast saw that, uh-uh, small boats is gonna be a problem.

We stopped the production early.

Wow.

We stopped very early, much earlier than some of our friends in the market.

And we were right- Yeah.

you know, to do that.

And, and so, so that's what I mean, li- like, kill your darlings.

You have to.

Yeah.

A bit of a prioritize, but prioritize constantly.

Yeah.

Uh- Once something might have been priority, the 200 sold well.

Exactly.

But as soon as that starts coming out, you need the fresh one, you need to innovate- Yeah.

you need to say, "Okay, this is what's next."

Yeah.

And because your, your timeline's so long in manufacturing, you'll need- Indeed.

to start that now for, what?

A boat coming to market 3 years from now- Yeah.

4 years from now?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's what I meant when I said about looking at the data that's, kind of like, already old.

How do you predict then 18 months, 2 y- you know, 48 months ahead?

Yeah.

How do you do that?

Yeah.

And so a l- a lot of suppliers watch this podcast, who supply boat builders.

Is there anything changing or do you have a specific way that you engage with suppliers to be more long-term partnership things?

Is there different types of supplies where you just want short-term, kind of, "Okay, we've seen an influx of demand, let's use you quick"?

Mm-hmm.

Is it

Ho- how do you, how do you create that relationship?

Well, I gu- I guess I'm not the perfect person to answer for our suppliers, but I would say that we have great r- great suppliers.

We have great relationships with our suppliers.

We like to think of them as they are our partners, really.

Okay.

Yeah.

Um, and, uh, they are very devoted to our brand.

They co-develop with us, um, you know, and, uh, and, uh, I would say that, um, it's a win-win for both of us, you know.

When we're successful, they're successful, so, so we succeed together.

Um- So would you say it's close to this, um, very consultative, long-term- Obviously, we have-

oh, let, let's have some stability as opposed to just, kind of, "Oh, that's a great product.

Yeah, let's, let's have it on this model, but maybe not the others."

Exactly.

Yeah.

Uh, as we are a serial production company, we need to think that we c- that, that the solutions between the boats, uh, we try to consolidate.

So it's easier for h- for us, instead of having so many different parts in each bo- in all the boats, it's better to align and then have the differentiators.

So in that regard, we try to always look for suppliers for long-term relationships.

Uh, of course, we have something that we just, "Hey, we saw something.

Let's try."

But usually, it's always a long-term relationship.

And of course, we have different profile suppliers.

The, but the strategic ones are very, very, um, close to us, and, and we work in tight collaboration.

And, and does that tend to serve you well, in terms of risk mitigation, kind of building that trust, and generally just a bit of robustness in the supply chain?

Mm-hmm.

I think this is the key.

Thi- thi- this is, uh, uh, maybe a question that, uh, is difficult to solve.

Because when you make custom parts with, w- uh, custom, uh, custom, uh, customized parts- As soon as it hits customer, it's a nightmare.

Yeah.

, you know.

And, and, and, and let's say, when you have customized parts with some supplier-You really can't wai- make them with another one, right?

So you are dependent.

So we are- Yeah.

They have developed them together with us and they know how to do it, so it's not always easy to have the plan B.

So we are also depended on our suppliers.

Yeah.

So maybe somebody could argue that risk management should be, should be an i- uh, should be an issue that we should have always 3 providers.

It's a mutual risk.

It's- But it's a mutual risk.

for both sides.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

And what about, what about the future?

What are we looking forward to?

What are you working on now that we can kind of look forward to?

Yeah.

You don't have to be too specific.

But what- Well, I think everybody can see that if we, if we

Like we said, we started with, uh, Sacster 200, which was a 6meter boat costing about 50K.

Yeah.

Uh, we just introduced, uh, 460 in Dusseldorf- Wow.

Yeah.

which is a f- uh, over 15-meter-long boat, uh, costing, um, mm, 8, 900K.

So, you know, we are moving towards bigger boats, for sure.

Yeah.

And, uh, um, you know, if you look at our name, Sacster Yachts, I'm sure there were people saying, "Sacster Yachts and you have a 6meter boats?

What are-" Yeah.

" what are you talking about?"

Yeah, what's happening.

Yeah, yeah.

What's happening?

But, uh, yeah, that has always been our plan, uh, to go bigger.

Uh, and now is the time that we're doing it.

The 460 is sort of the one in between the yacht line and the sort of the standard- Yeah.

Sacsters.

And let's see how far we go, and let's see how wide we go.

But, uh, yeah.

We'll find out.

I think our design is, is, is well appreciated also in a bigger, bigger, um, category.

And, uh, the drivability, I mean, the guys tested the 460 in rough conditions in Finland where it's produced.

And, um, uh, yeah, okay, it wasn't fully equipped.

We were still missing some parts, so it was a bit lighter, but, uh, it was, uh, 52 knots that it went easily.

Wow.

You know?

Boom, just like that.

Without any adjustments and anything, so.

So, yeah.

Yeah, it's a, always a driver's boat.

Serious boat.

Yeah, serious boat.

Okay, fantastic.

For sure.

Una, thank you for coming on the podcast.

Pleasure meeting you.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah.

Thank you.

A real pleasure.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

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All being well, we'll see you on the next episode.

Bye for now.